[Myanmar] FW: Myanmar Shan Unicode - Part 6

[Khwaan Tai]

Hello,

The question of right or wrong is not important at the moment. There are
logical ways to go around and then get the things right!!! But don't
worry. For now let it be. Time is evolution and evolution is time.

For the keyboard layout and driver, we have been creating and using
them since the early part of 2006 even when Unicode fonts were less used for
Burmese websites. So that would not be a problem for us to create them for
the standard. What we will need is just the codes for our script.

We have three major keyboard layouts commonly or most used for Shan. They
are AJK Salween Tai, B_ShanBB and Sai. For users' convenience, Sai Murng
Zuen, Sai Zin and me will be discussing about the codes for all Shan
characters and Symbols so that all the keyboards adopt the same codes for
the standard. Whatever keyboard is used, it will just create the same result
- words and phrases!

I have talked with Sai Murng Zuen today about this and hope that he will
give some feedback too on this. See the attached files for common keyboard
layouts, "Sai" and "AJK Salween Tai" and the *beta* keyboard driver "
TaiUni.zip" (just created for the standard by using the current codes) for
AJK Salween Tai as "Tai Unicode AJK". You can test this driver with your
Anoratha font. For common B_ShanBB keyboard layout, find at
www.sanloitai.com.

We must say thank you, Htoo, for your generosity in offering to do this for
us. We will need to use appropriate names for our keyboards. This is the
reason why we want to put the process in our hands. Anyhow, you are welcome
to give us any suggestions on some technical issue where necessary if you
like.

One most important thing we have to consider is whether the words and
phrases will turn out alright when your font is used as it has not been
tested by any Shan yet so far before it's officially released.

Khwaan Tai



On 7/28/07, Htoo Myint Naung <vox at technomation.org> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> As Mr.Rick says, Unicode encodes scripts and not language. I don't think
> we need to encode different numbers for different languages in the same
> script as long as they don't have any difference. Correct me if I'm wrong.
>
>
>  I am looking for a Shan ASCII font which is most commonly used currently.
> I think it's M-Shan but Shan people will know more about that. Please
> provide me with that information so I can start designing things like
> Keyboard Layout, etc for Shan based on that common ASCII font.
>
>
> Htoo Myint Naung
>
>  On 7/28/07, Khwaan Tai <khwaantai at gmail.com > wrote:
>
> >  Hello Rick McGowan, Michael and all,
> >
> > Thanks for your message. I was on a trip and just got back. I have
> > checked the final proposal by Michael about Shan Unicode. So I will be
> > talking about this and some other issues related to this as well in this
> > email. This will include three more characters to be considered for the
> > inclusion in the block.
> >
> > *About final proposal*
> > When checking to see where the most used Shan characters are used in the
> > block, I have noticed the names and codes for the Shan Tones are incorrect
> > to see from the block on page 7 and Unicode Character Properties on page 2.
> > Please correct me if what I have observed could be wrong. I hope Sai Di Di
> > Zone and Sai Murng Zuen Hengtai can help check this. In Michael's Anoratha's
> > font block, the tones could have been named wrongly. Please see no.
> > 36-41 in "*Tai Unicode*" a PDF file that is included in the zipped
> > folder put as attached with this email.
> >
> > *What is on page 2*
> > 1087;MYANMAR SIGN SHAN TONE-2;Mc;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> > 1088;MYANMAR SIGN SHAN TONE-5;Mc;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> > 1089;MYANMAR SIGN SHAN TONE-6;Mc;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> > 108A;MYANMAR SIGN SHAN TONE-3;Mc;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> >
> > *How they should be*
> > 1087;MYANMAR SIGN SHAN TONE-2;Mc;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> > *1089*;MYANMAR SIGN *SHAN TONE-5*;Mc;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> > *108A*;MYANMAR SIGN *SHAN TONE-6*;Mc;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> > *1088*;MYANMAR SIGN *SHAN TONE-3 *;Mc;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> >
> > **
> > **
> > *Three more characters to be considered for the inclusion in the block*
> >
> > For the three characters most used and that should be considered in the
> > block are highlighted with Cyan Color in "*Tai Unicode*" a PDF file.They are no. 55, 56 and 61. I have put some notes as comments to the words
> > in the file. In the zipped folder, there is a font file called "AJK old
> > style". You can see inside the font how the characters are combined and
> > used. This is with old style keyboardlayout (without the unicode in
> > mind). Michael can use this font as the base to create a new one as well. If
> > it is so, we will prefer its name as "Sur Khan Fa". Sur Khan Fa is the
> > fomous Shan/Tai King of the generation of Nan Chao Kingdom.
> >
> > *My reply to*
> > "That is a common mis-interpretation of The Unicode Standard. Character
> > encoding works with scripts, not languages. You should carefully read
> > the
> > documentation in the first few chapters of the Unicode book to
> > understand
> > what is actually being encoded, and why. If we gave "every character of
> > every language" a unique number, we would have 50 or more different
> > Latin
> > alplhabets for Europe alone. The Unicode Standard is actually encoding
> > *scripts*, and most scripts are used for several languages. Please see
> > the
> > 5.0 web page: http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode5.0.0/
> > where you will find all chapters of the book on-line in PDF format.
> > Probably most important for Shan encoding discussions are chapters 1,
> > 2.1 -
> > 2.4, 9.1 and 11.3. I also recommend that you look carefully at UTR #17,
> > the Character Encoding Model:
> > http://www.unicode.org/reports <http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr17/>
> > /tr17/ <http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr17/> especially section 2.2." -
> > Rick McGowan
> > The concept of a number for every character of every language is not my
> > own opinion and it's from what I have read about Unicode from some books.
> > Please see in the zipped folder, "Unicode and Unique Number" a JPEG file. I
> > have highlighted this point that has been clearly stated in the forward
> > itself.
> >
> > In a proposed new script for Lanna http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2<http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n3121.pdf>/wg2/docs/n3121.pdf<http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n3121.pdf>
> > we have seen that some of their digits are ones and the same with that
> > of Burmese digits. However, it seems that at this stage, each of those
> > numbers are given their own unique code different from that of Burmese.
> > For example.
> > 1A93;LANNA THAM DIGIT THREE;Nd;0;L;;3;3;3;N;;;;;
> > 1A94;LANNA THAM DIGIT FOUR;Nd;0;L;;4;4;4;N;;;;;
> >
> > The same words would be different from Burmese digits as
> >
> > 1043 Myanmar Digit Three
> > 1044 Myanmar Digit Four
> >
> > We may have encountered quite a number of example like this. This is
> > just my opinion on why any language can't have its own block.
> >
> > Thank you, Rick McGowan, for your explanation about this.
> >
> > *All Shan Characters used in the Block*
> > To make sure that we have the most necessary characters encoded for the
> > standard, I have circled those in the boxes with Cyan Color in addition to
> > the Cyan and Yellow color boxes. Michael can point out whether what have
> > done is correct. Please see this in "Tai Unicode" a JPEG file in the zipped
> > folder.
> >
> > I have talked with a font designer and he has pointed out the other most
> > used characters, the one mentioned above. With the three characters as
> > additions to the present proposed characters after our days of discussion
> > through emails, we will at present have the complete set with standard for
> > daily or normal use (without pali, of course).
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Khwaan Tai
> > http://www.tai-nation.org
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/7/07, Rick McGowan <rick at unicode.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Khwaan Tai --
> > >
> > > Your note of July 05 was forwarded to me by Magda Danish. I understand
> > > that you have been in discussions with Michael Everson and Martin
> > > Hosken,
> > > and it seems that your discussions are going well.
> > >
> > > It would be helpful to us if you would put me and Ken Whistler
> > > ( ken at unicode.org) on your CC list instead of Magda Danish. Magda is
> > > not
> > > involved in the technical parts of encoding, she is in our
> > > administrative
> > > department.
> > >
> > > I will not interfere with the discussion you are now having, but I
> > > wanted
> > > to respond to one item in particular. You wrote:
> > >
> > > > As we believe and actually it is, that the Unicode Consortium
> > > > is working on character code that gives every character of every
> > > > language a unique number
> > >
> > > That is a common mis-interpretation of The Unicode Standard. Character
> > >
> > > encoding works with scripts, not languages. You should carefully read
> > > the
> > > documentation in the first few chapters of the Unicode book to
> > > understand
> > > what is actually being encoded, and why. If we gave "every character
> > > of
> > > every language" a unique number, we would have 50 or more different
> > > Latin
> > > alplhabets for Europe alone. The Unicode Standard is actually encoding
> > > *scripts*, and most scripts are used for several languages. Please see
> > > the
> > > 5.0 web page: http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode5.0.0/
> > > where you will find all chapters of the book on-line in PDF format.
> > > Probably most important for Shan encoding discussions are chapters 1,
> > > 2.1 -
> > > 2.4, 9.1 and 11.3. I also recommend that you look carefully at UTR
> > > #17,
> > > the Character Encoding Model:
> > > http://www.unicode.org/reports <http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr17/>
> > > /tr17/ <http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr17/> especially section 2.2.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >        Rick McGowan
> > >        Unicode, Inc.
> > >
> > > --------------
> > >
> > > > From: Khwaan Tai [mailto: khwaantai at gmail.com]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 6:17 AM
> > > > To: 'Sai Zin Di Di Zone'; 'Michael Everson'; martin_hosken at sil.org;
> > > > nel.adams at ntlworld.com; sanloitai at gmail.com; magda at unicode.org
> > > > Subject: RE: Myanmar Shan Unicode
> > > >
> > > > Dear Sai Zin Di Di Zone, Michael and all,
> > > >
> > > > For the Shan digits, I hope that you will provide Michael the
> > > materials that
> > > > are being in used. Perhaps, Michael himself has to visit Shan State
> > > to see
> > > > the reality of the existence of the digits. Or that he keeps in
> > > touch with or
> > > > meets some of our prominent scholars like Sai Pha (Ma HA TOE
> > > teachers since
> > > > 1970s or even earlier) and Sra Sai Aung Htun, who is Sai Pha's
> > > teacher and
> > > > also has been working on the teaching of Shan literature (in 1950s
> > > or
> > > > 1960s) earlier than Sai Pha. So we have learnt Shan digits from our
> > > > Childhood! Please Michael, don't just accept what others say that
> > > these
> > > > digits don't exist, instead, try to see this in reality. It's a pity
> > > that the
> > > > Shan Scholars have been overlooked in the process!
> > > >
> > > > With regard to Pali, there would be different versions of writing
> > > system in
> > > > the different periods of time but what is most important here is
> > > that we have
> > > > to see the current version which is being accepted and adopted by
> > > the body of
> > > > monks community and new generations. I think Sai Zin Di Di Zone
> > > should keep
> > > > in touch with the Secretary of Shan Sangha Committee in the Central
> > > Shan
> > > > State. I have heard from friends on enquiry, that at the moment, Sao
> > > Sukham,
> > > > who is the most famous Shan Scholar in his literary works as authors
> > > of many
> > > > books in Shan  and in his successful missionary as Preacher and
> > > meditation
> > > > teacher, is now with that position of Secretary of Shan Shangha
> > > Committee
> > > > for the whole Shan State. There is a pali version that has been
> > > approved by
> > > > the Sangha Committee at the Sangha (monks) Council and is being in
> > > used.
> > > >
> > > > Burmese would have many versions of their pali too if we still
> > > consider the
> > > > ones being in used in the pagan period or ava period or some later
> > > periods
> > > > before the current one became a stable one that is used by them. So
> > > too in the
> > > > case the Shan Pali versions. Evolution is what makes human history
> > > > beautiful in its gradual development. I propose that Michael and
> > > friends
> > > > work closely with those Shan Scholars who are responsible for the
> > > progress
> > > > of the literary works of the Shan People. My opinion is that anyone
> > > who works
> > > > on this should not rely on just hearsay and being skeptic. One
> > > should be very
> > > > pragmatic in this approach.
> > > >
> > > > We understand that Myanmar Government doesn't help Michael and
> > > friends to
> > > > do this. We also understand that those, from Burma, who are working
> > > with you
> > > > in this process, instead of helping the Shan literary works in a
> > > proper way,
> > > > would surely make the Shan People confused. This is because they
> > > > themselves are not working closely with the Shan Scholars and Shan
> > > > Literature and Cultural Committees inside of the Shan State and
> > > elsewhere
> > > > and just work on their own simply to impose what they would have
> > > done on the
> > > > Shan People (dictatorship style!). With this, I am sure that you
> > > will
> > > > understand the situation. But as now being responsible persons
> > > helping to
> > > > encode the many different languages at the Unicode Consortium in the
> > > very
> > > > Democratic Country, Michael and Martin Hosken have the liberty to
> > > work on
> > > > this more appropriately when the right people are kept in touch and
> > > the
> > > > right materials and sources can be scanned and used.
> > > >
> > > > As we believe and actually it is, that the Unicode Consortium is
> > > working on
> > > > character code that gives every character of every language a unique
> > > > number, any language including Shan deserves the preservation of its
> > > own
> > > > Unicode Block in the encoding system. I understand that what Sai
> > > Murngzuen
> > > > Hengtai said is that without our own block, we will surely face some
> > > > problems in future computer programming for Shan People. One
> > > important
> > > > thing we have to note is that we have to send a unique font for Shan
> > > (as
> > > in any
> > > > other
> > > > languages) to the Unicode Consortium for the encoding purpose. So
> > > here a
> > > > question would arise whether there would be any conflict of the font
> > > used in
> > > > the font (block) that will be used internationally like Arial
> > > Unicode
> > > > because for the Burmese characters they have sent out a version for
> > > > themselves. There would surely exist the differences between the
> > > fonts
> > > > used.
> > > > That will not guarantee a success in displaying the character, due
> > > to lack
> > > > of a suitable font. Any adjustment would be difficult if things are
> > > not
> > > > properly planned at the start. (Here we understand that we can
> > > create our
> > > > own font files with the codes but what the internationally used font
> > > like
> > > > Arial Unicode has fixed characters in them to be displayed
> > > > internationally at any place and at any time without us worrying
> > > about the
> > > > font used. What windows does is exactly this.)
> > > >
> > > > So with all the existing Shan characters currently in used,
> > > including Shan
> > > > digits and pali, we will like to propose that we have a block of our
> > > own and
> > > > this will be avoiding any confusion that may arise in near future.
> > > Here we
> > > > would like Michael and friends to know that the information
> > > collected by
> > > > the research team about Shan may sometimes be old and outdated.
> > > Therefore
> > > > we suggest that you work closely with Shan Scholars themselves as
> > > well as
> > > > those experts (here those who try to see the reality without any
> > > > discrimination or without any political imposition) on Shan.
> > > >
> > > > Also here I suggest Sai Zin Di Di Zone keep in touch with the
> > > persons and Shan
> > > > Committees concerned. And Sai Murngzuen can keep in touch with Sao
> > > Puen
> > > > Kham who I mentioned before. I have learnt that as he himself is
> > > seen by Shan
> > > > scholars and people as a scholar on Shan Literature and research he
> > > will
> > > > have better network with many Shan Scholars as well.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you very much Michael and Martin for your effort and time in
> > > this
> > > > process,
> > > >
> > > > With best regards,
> > > >
> > > > Khwaan tai
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Michael Everson [mailto:everson at evertype.com]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 2:57 PM
> > > > To: Sai Zin Di Di Zone
> > > > Cc: martin_hosken at sil.org; nel.adams at ntlworld.com;
> > > > khwaantai at gmail.com; sanloitai at gmail.com
> > > > Subject: Myanmar Shan Unicode
> > > >
> > > > Dear Sai Zin,
> > > >
> > > > (Please let me know if shortening your name is impolite. I do not
> > > wish to be
> > > > impolite. You can call me Michael, however.)
> > > >
> > > > We've looked at your document and agree with a number of the
> > > proposals you
> > > > have made.
> > > >
> > > > 1. We agree that the glyph of SHAN NYA can be changed.
> > > >
> > > > 2. We do not agree about the Shan Council tones. In fact, we are
> > > missing
> > > one of
> > > > them and it should be added. The claim that these were never
> > > accepted by the
> > > > public does not make the case for not encoding these, because you
> > > would
> > > > still need them to represent the original documents about the Shan
> > > script
> > > > reform. However, these "SHAN COUNCIL"
> > > > tone marks would probably be better off reordered in the table. And
> > > one is
> > > > missing... it looks like 1085 with only one dot, and contrasts with
> > > 1086.
> > > >
> > > > 3. We agree that GA, ZA, DA, and BA should be added.
> > > >
> > > > 4. We think that VOWEL SIGN AE can be composed of 107E and 103A. If
> > > a new
> > > > character were added it would possibly be confused with that
> > > sequence -- a
> > > > security issue since they look alike.
> > > >
> > > > 5. We agree that EXCLAMATION and ONE could be added.
> > > >
> > > > 6. Possibly the digits could be added but we do not see evidence for
> > > them
> > > > really being used.
> > > >
> > > > 7. Eventually we should look into the question of Shan Pali letters.
> > > > But I have hear that many monasteries made their own versions.
> > > >
> > > > Can you send me the scans which you used in your document? I will
> > > need
> > > to make a
> > > > proposal document about this because it affects characters under
> > > ballot.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards,
> > > > --
> > > > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > Myanmar at evertype.com
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> > /listinfo/myanmar_evertype.com<http://evertype.com/mailman/listinfo/myanmar_evertype.com>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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