[Myanmar] FW: Myanmar Shan Unicode - Part 6

[Htoo Myint Naung]

Hello,
As Mr.Rick says, Unicode encodes scripts and not language. I don't think we
need to encode different numbers for different languages in the same script
as long as they don't have any difference. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 I am looking for a Shan ASCII font which is most commonly used currently. I
think it's M-Shan but Shan people will know more about that. Please provide
me with that information so I can start designing things like Keyboard
Layout, etc for Shan based on that common ASCII font.

Htoo Myint Naung

On 7/28/07, Khwaan Tai <khwaantai at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello Rick McGowan, Michael and all,
>
> Thanks for your message. I was on a trip and just got back. I have checked
> the final proposal by Michael about Shan Unicode. So I will be talking about
> this and some other issues related to this as well in this email. This
> will include three more characters to be considered for the inclusion in the
> block.
>
> *About final proposal*
> When checking to see where the most used Shan characters are used in the
> block, I have noticed the names and codes for the Shan Tones are incorrect
> to see from the block on page 7 and Unicode Character Properties on page 2.
> Please correct me if what I have observed could be wrong. I hope Sai Di Di
> Zone and Sai Murng Zuen Hengtai can help check this. In Michael's Anoratha's
> font block, the tones could have been named wrongly. Please see no. 36-41
> in "*Tai Unicode*" a PDF file that is included in the zipped folder put as
> attached with this email.
>
> *What is on page 2*
> 1087;MYANMAR SIGN SHAN TONE-2;Mc;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 1088;MYANMAR SIGN SHAN TONE-5;Mc;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 1089;MYANMAR SIGN SHAN TONE-6;Mc;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> 108A;MYANMAR SIGN SHAN TONE-3;Mc;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
>
> *How they should be*
> 1087;MYANMAR SIGN SHAN TONE-2;Mc;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> *1089*;MYANMAR SIGN *SHAN TONE-5*;Mc;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> *108A*;MYANMAR SIGN *SHAN TONE-6*;Mc;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
> *1088*;MYANMAR SIGN *SHAN TONE-3 *;Mc;0;L;;;;;N;;;;;
>
> **
> **
> *Three more characters to be considered for the inclusion in the block*
>
> For the three characters most used and that should be considered in the
> block are highlighted with Cyan Color in "*Tai Unicode*" a PDF file. They
> are no. 55, 56 and 61. I have put some notes as comments to the words in the
> file. In the zipped folder, there is a font file called "AJK old style". You
> can see inside the font how the characters are combined and used. This is
> with old style keyboardlayout (without the unicode in mind). Michael can use
> this font as the base to create a new one as well. If it is so, we will
> prefer its name as "Sur Khan Fa". Sur Khan Fa is the fomous Shan/Tai King of
> the generation of Nan Chao Kingdom.
>
> *My reply to*
> "That is a common mis-interpretation of The Unicode Standard. Character
> encoding works with scripts, not languages. You should carefully read the
> documentation in the first few chapters of the Unicode book to understand
> what is actually being encoded, and why. If we gave "every character of
> every language" a unique number, we would have 50 or more different Latin
> alplhabets for Europe alone. The Unicode Standard is actually encoding
> *scripts*, and most scripts are used for several languages. Please see the
> 5.0 web page: http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode5.0.0/
> where you will find all chapters of the book on-line in PDF format.
> Probably most important for Shan encoding discussions are chapters 1, 2.1-
> 2.4, 9.1 and 11.3. I also recommend that you look carefully at UTR #17,
> the Character Encoding Model:
> http://www.unicode.org/reports <http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr17/>
> /tr17/ <http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr17/> especially section 2.2." -
> Rick McGowan
> The concept of a number for every character of every language is not my
> own opinion and it's from what I have read about Unicode from some books.
> Please see in the zipped folder, "Unicode and Unique Number" a JPEG file. I
> have highlighted this point that has been clearly stated in the forward
> itself.
>
> In a proposed new script for Lanna http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2<http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n3121.pdf>
> /wg2/docs/n3121.pdf <http://std.dkuug.dk/jtc1/sc2/wg2/docs/n3121.pdf>
> we have seen that some of their digits are ones and the same with that of
> Burmese digits. However, it seems that at this stage, each of those numbers
> are given their own unique code different from that of Burmese.
> For example.
> 1A93;LANNA THAM DIGIT THREE;Nd;0;L;;3;3;3;N;;;;;
> 1A94;LANNA THAM DIGIT FOUR;Nd;0;L;;4;4;4;N;;;;;
>
> The same words would be different from Burmese digits as
>
> 1043 Myanmar Digit Three
> 1044 Myanmar Digit Four
>
> We may have encountered quite a number of example like this. This is just
> my opinion on why any language can't have its own block.
>
> Thank you, Rick McGowan, for your explanation about this.
>
> *All Shan Characters used in the Block*
> To make sure that we have the most necessary characters encoded for the
> standard, I have circled those in the boxes with Cyan Color in addition to
> the Cyan and Yellow color boxes. Michael can point out whether what have
> done is correct. Please see this in "Tai Unicode" a JPEG file in the zipped
> folder.
>
> I have talked with a font designer and he has pointed out the other most
> used characters, the one mentioned above. With the three characters as
> additions to the present proposed characters after our days of discussion
> through emails, we will at present have the complete set with standard for
> daily or normal use (without pali, of course).
>
> Best Regards,
> Khwaan Tai
> http://www.tai-nation.org
>
>
>
> On 7/7/07, Rick McGowan <rick at unicode.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Khwaan Tai --
> >
> > Your note of July 05 was forwarded to me by Magda Danish. I understand
> > that you have been in discussions with Michael Everson and Martin
> > Hosken,
> > and it seems that your discussions are going well.
> >
> > It would be helpful to us if you would put me and Ken Whistler
> > (ken at unicode.org) on your CC list instead of Magda Danish. Magda is not
> > involved in the technical parts of encoding, she is in our
> > administrative
> > department.
> >
> > I will not interfere with the discussion you are now having, but I
> > wanted
> > to respond to one item in particular. You wrote:
> >
> > > As we believe and actually it is, that the Unicode Consortium
> > > is working on character code that gives every character of every
> > > language a unique number
> >
> > That is a common mis-interpretation of The Unicode Standard. Character
> > encoding works with scripts, not languages. You should carefully read
> > the
> > documentation in the first few chapters of the Unicode book to
> > understand
> > what is actually being encoded, and why. If we gave "every character of
> > every language" a unique number, we would have 50 or more different
> > Latin
> > alplhabets for Europe alone. The Unicode Standard is actually encoding
> > *scripts*, and most scripts are used for several languages. Please see
> > the
> > 5.0 web page: http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode5.0.0/
> > where you will find all chapters of the book on-line in PDF format.
> > Probably most important for Shan encoding discussions are chapters 1,
> > 2.1 -
> > 2.4, 9.1 and 11.3. I also recommend that you look carefully at UTR #17,
> > the Character Encoding Model:
> > http://www.unicode.org/reports <http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr17/>
> > /tr17/ <http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr17/> especially section 2.2.
> >
> > Regards,
> >        Rick McGowan
> >        Unicode, Inc.
> >
> > --------------
> >
> > > From: Khwaan Tai [mailto:khwaantai at gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 6:17 AM
> > > To: 'Sai Zin Di Di Zone'; 'Michael Everson'; martin_hosken at sil.org;
> > > nel.adams at ntlworld.com; sanloitai at gmail.com; magda at unicode.org
> > > Subject: RE: Myanmar Shan Unicode
> > >
> > > Dear Sai Zin Di Di Zone, Michael and all,
> > >
> > > For the Shan digits, I hope that you will provide Michael the
> > materials that
> > > are being in used. Perhaps, Michael himself has to visit Shan State to
> > see
> > > the reality of the existence of the digits. Or that he keeps in touch
> > with or
> > > meets some of our prominent scholars like Sai Pha (Ma HA TOE teachers
> > since
> > > 1970s or even earlier) and Sra Sai Aung Htun, who is Sai Pha's teacher
> > and
> > > also has been working on the teaching of Shan literature (in 1950s or
> > > 1960s) earlier than Sai Pha. So we have learnt Shan digits from our
> > > Childhood! Please Michael, don't just accept what others say that
> > these
> > > digits don't exist, instead, try to see this in reality. It's a pity
> > that the
> > > Shan Scholars have been overlooked in the process!
> > >
> > > With regard to Pali, there would be different versions of writing
> > system in
> > > the different periods of time but what is most important here is that
> > we have
> > > to see the current version which is being accepted and adopted by the
> > body of
> > > monks community and new generations. I think Sai Zin Di Di Zone should
> > keep
> > > in touch with the Secretary of Shan Sangha Committee in the Central
> > Shan
> > > State. I have heard from friends on enquiry, that at the moment, Sao
> > Sukham,
> > > who is the most famous Shan Scholar in his literary works as authors
> > of many
> > > books in Shan  and in his successful missionary as Preacher and
> > meditation
> > > teacher, is now with that position of Secretary of Shan Shangha
> > Committee
> > > for the whole Shan State. There is a pali version that has been
> > approved by
> > > the Sangha Committee at the Sangha (monks) Council and is being in
> > used.
> > >
> > > Burmese would have many versions of their pali too if we still
> > consider the
> > > ones being in used in the pagan period or ava period or some later
> > periods
> > > before the current one became a stable one that is used by them. So
> > too in the
> > > case the Shan Pali versions. Evolution is what makes human history
> > > beautiful in its gradual development. I propose that Michael and
> > friends
> > > work closely with those Shan Scholars who are responsible for the
> > progress
> > > of the literary works of the Shan People. My opinion is that anyone
> > who works
> > > on this should not rely on just hearsay and being skeptic. One should
> > be very
> > > pragmatic in this approach.
> > >
> > > We understand that Myanmar Government doesn't help Michael and friends
> > to
> > > do this. We also understand that those, from Burma, who are working
> > with you
> > > in this process, instead of helping the Shan literary works in a
> > proper way,
> > > would surely make the Shan People confused. This is because they
> > > themselves are not working closely with the Shan Scholars and Shan
> > > Literature and Cultural Committees inside of the Shan State and
> > elsewhere
> > > and just work on their own simply to impose what they would have done
> > on the
> > > Shan People (dictatorship style!). With this, I am sure that you will
> > > understand the situation. But as now being responsible persons helping
> > to
> > > encode the many different languages at the Unicode Consortium in the
> > very
> > > Democratic Country, Michael and Martin Hosken have the liberty to work
> > on
> > > this more appropriately when the right people are kept in touch and
> > the
> > > right materials and sources can be scanned and used.
> > >
> > > As we believe and actually it is, that the Unicode Consortium is
> > working on
> > > character code that gives every character of every language a unique
> > > number, any language including Shan deserves the preservation of its
> > own
> > > Unicode Block in the encoding system. I understand that what Sai
> > Murngzuen
> > > Hengtai said is that without our own block, we will surely face some
> > > problems in future computer programming for Shan People. One important
> > > thing we have to note is that we have to send a unique font for Shan
> > (as
> > in any
> > > other
> > > languages) to the Unicode Consortium for the encoding purpose. So here
> > a
> > > question would arise whether there would be any conflict of the font
> > used in
> > > the font (block) that will be used internationally like Arial Unicode
> > > because for the Burmese characters they have sent out a version for
> > > themselves. There would surely exist the differences between the fonts
> > > used.
> > > That will not guarantee a success in displaying the character, due to
> > lack
> > > of a suitable font. Any adjustment would be difficult if things are
> > not
> > > properly planned at the start. (Here we understand that we can create
> > our
> > > own font files with the codes but what the internationally used font
> > like
> > > Arial Unicode has fixed characters in them to be displayed
> > > internationally at any place and at any time without us worrying about
> > the
> > > font used. What windows does is exactly this.)
> > >
> > > So with all the existing Shan characters currently in used, including
> > Shan
> > > digits and pali, we will like to propose that we have a block of our
> > own and
> > > this will be avoiding any confusion that may arise in near future.
> > Here we
> > > would like Michael and friends to know that the information collected
> > by
> > > the research team about Shan may sometimes be old and outdated.
> > Therefore
> > > we suggest that you work closely with Shan Scholars themselves as well
> > as
> > > those experts (here those who try to see the reality without any
> > > discrimination or without any political imposition) on Shan.
> > >
> > > Also here I suggest Sai Zin Di Di Zone keep in touch with the persons
> > and Shan
> > > Committees concerned. And Sai Murngzuen can keep in touch with Sao
> > Puen
> > > Kham who I mentioned before. I have learnt that as he himself is seen
> > by Shan
> > > scholars and people as a scholar on Shan Literature and research he
> > will
> > > have better network with many Shan Scholars as well.
> > >
> > > Thank you very much Michael and Martin for your effort and time in
> > this
> > > process,
> > >
> > > With best regards,
> > >
> > > Khwaan tai
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Michael Everson [mailto:everson at evertype.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 2:57 PM
> > > To: Sai Zin Di Di Zone
> > > Cc: martin_hosken at sil.org; nel.adams at ntlworld.com;
> > > khwaantai at gmail.com; sanloitai at gmail.com
> > > Subject: Myanmar Shan Unicode
> > >
> > > Dear Sai Zin,
> > >
> > > (Please let me know if shortening your name is impolite. I do not wish
> > to be
> > > impolite. You can call me Michael, however.)
> > >
> > > We've looked at your document and agree with a number of the proposals
> > you
> > > have made.
> > >
> > > 1. We agree that the glyph of SHAN NYA can be changed.
> > >
> > > 2. We do not agree about the Shan Council tones. In fact, we are
> > missing
> > one of
> > > them and it should be added. The claim that these were never accepted
> > by the
> > > public does not make the case for not encoding these, because you
> > would
> > > still need them to represent the original documents about the Shan
> > script
> > > reform. However, these "SHAN COUNCIL"
> > > tone marks would probably be better off reordered in the table. And
> > one is
> > > missing... it looks like 1085 with only one dot, and contrasts with
> > 1086.
> > >
> > > 3. We agree that GA, ZA, DA, and BA should be added.
> > >
> > > 4. We think that VOWEL SIGN AE can be composed of 107E and 103A. If a
> > new
> > > character were added it would possibly be confused with that sequence
> > -- a
> > > security issue since they look alike.
> > >
> > > 5. We agree that EXCLAMATION and ONE could be added.
> > >
> > > 6. Possibly the digits could be added but we do not see evidence for
> > them
> > > really being used.
> > >
> > > 7. Eventually we should look into the question of Shan Pali letters.
> > > But I have hear that many monasteries made their own versions.
> > >
> > > Can you send me the scans which you used in your document? I will need
> >
> > to make a
> > > proposal document about this because it affects characters under
> > ballot.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > --
> > > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com
> >
> >
>
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