[Egyptian] On "A system of control characters for Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic text" (2016-07-23)

Mon Jul 25 17:16:34 BST 2016

Hi Stéphane

Congratulations for being the first to (heartfully) express public support for a representation of MdC X1:R1 that uses  3 control characters. 

Certainly Unicode could handle it but I’m a little sceptical most Egyptologists could. I hope we’ll have this topic cleared up in the next few days otherwise I think we are going to have to draw more Egyptologists into the discussion.

Incidentally have you ever attempted to edit text written in a Complex Script using a word processor? If you haven’t I suggest you do then perhaps think again about what you are putting your name to.

I mentioned the background on the need for control characters in my reply to Marwans post at the weekend.

Reading what you’ve said here I suspect the underlying issue is you feel that if we don’t do everything now all is lost. 

Relax. This is not the case with Unicode. The approach is to start off with something we know works, perhaps with some minor limitations, and build from that on the basis of experience and evidence. That’s what we did with the repertoire. I’ve listened carefully to feedback on the three controls and will propose some adjustments and additions which I hope go a long way to addressing points raised. For the occasional clusters or writings we don’t address yet you can use an HLP then when good evidence exists on exactly what is needed we can extend.

You say you leave it to the specialists but then seem to want to ignore what we recommend! I can’t  think of anyone I’ve met with solid software experience who would see the syntax of  “A System of …” as a practical step forward – if you find one put them in touch with me I enjoy new experiences!

Sorry Stéphane you get the brunt, price you pay for being the first :).

Regards,

Bob

From: Egyptian [mailto:egyptian-bounces at evertype.com] On Behalf Of Stéphane polis
Sent: 25 July 2016 11:25
To: Egyptian Hieroglyphs in the UCS <egyptian at evertype.com>
Subject: Re: [Egyptian] On "A system of control characters for Ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic text" (2016-07-23)

Hi all,

If i may jump in one last time.

As I said several times, I leave entirely up to the specialists all the issues concerning the syntax of the operators.

What matters for me is what you can effectively achieve, and Mak-Jan’s proposal covers precisely what we minimally would like to have (which is why I support it heartfully). 

Now, if it really ends up to be too much for Unicode and that there is no way to make this happen there, but that you are confident that it can be handled at the level of HLPs, then can I ask a very naive question: what need is there for any control character in Unicode?

After all, Marwan’s font with the ligatures seems to work quite well for basic purposes, so it can be considered as a good solution for some users esp. when combined with So’s input system.

For other uses, we will need several types of grouping, groups inserted in groups, etc.: why would some bits end up in Unicode, while other would be up to HLP? Shouldn’t we try to have a coherent scheme and not something made of bits and pieces?

A real (even if maybe naive) concern.

Take care,

Stéphane

Le 24 juil. 2016 à 20:41, Bob Richmond <bobqq at live.co.uk <mailto:bobqq at live.co.uk> > a écrit :

Hi Mark-Jan

We’ve been talking about plain text on and off for over 18 months so I was interested to read your L2/16-177 “new system” earlier this month and your latest update yesterday ( <https://mjn.host.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/tmp/unicode2.pdf> https://mjn.host.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/tmp/unicode2.pdf). Good to see your number of control characters now reduced, more consideration has been given to OpenType and some discussion in Cambridge has been factored in. I understand what you are trying to do and there are points I’d like to discuss when we have time. There are items you note that indeed need to be progressed and agreed (EMPTY, STACK CARTOUCHE …)

However I am disappointed you have not taken on board the fundamental failing with the scheme you’ve been developing that makes it unsuitable for Unicode plain text consideration, however useful it may be for other purposes. I thought this was clear at Cambridge but apparently not.

Unicode plain text hieroglyphic is exposed to a huge audience and the very first consideration is don’t make simple things complicated. Use of BEGIN/END for every group breaks that basic rule. Your scheme is unnecessarily complicated so fails at the outset. It’s a continuing distraction for the less technically minded in this group to continue to hold it up as a viable alternative to the current UTC recommendation. It is not.

MdC X1:R1 in your scheme uses 3 control characters. Quite honestly I find it hard to understand why anyone thinks this is possibly a good idea. If anyone reading this does support 3 over 1 please let me know your reasoning I’m actually quite curious why I’ve had to spend time on this.

What you’ve tried to do is build a theoretical model which describes cluster layout given a set of constraints and that’s all good as an academic exercise. I’d  be interested to see it tested against texts and data. All features of could be added in some way to the three control system as HLP or extra controls. 

So, there’s no need to throw your work away. Some parts apply to plain text implementation e.g. your description on making an MdC-like font. Plenty more you could re-purpose should you wish to continue to be involved in Unicode developments.

What I suggest you do is consider how you might use elements of your scheme in a simple higher level protocol on top of plain text as it is at present (I’ll be circulating my considered view on adding to the 3 control set on Tuesday). Brackets in an HLP could be ok for rare cases. May be useful for TLA and Ramses. 

Meanwhile if you have any ideas on how you would like to see e.g. 4 corners added to the existing proposal I’d be pleased to hear from your or anyone else on the topic.

Regards,

Bob

_______________________________________________
Egyptian mailing list
 <mailto:Egyptian at evertype.com> Egyptian at evertype.com
 <http://evertype.com/mailman/listinfo/egyptian_evertype.com> http://evertype.com/mailman/listinfo/egyptian_evertype.com

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://evertype.com/pipermail/egyptian_evertype.com/attachments/20160725/da76247f/attachment.htm>