[Egyptian] Cambridge: conclusions and next steps

Thu Jul 21 20:19:09 BST 2016

Dear Ingelore and Stéphane, dear all,

It is great to see so much valuable input on our mail group. I would like to clarify one thing regarding the repertoire. I completely agree with you Stéphane and Ingelore and I am sorry that my wording was apparently not so clear. 

For short term (hopefully by mid August, as was discussed in Cambridge) the check on the Mollerlist proposal of Michael can be done and other missing hieroglyphs that have references can be added to it. If August is not feasible it could be I guess later this year. The compilation of the entire list with references indeed will take much longer and can be done step by step.

Thanks Ingelore for reminding your suggestion to get in contact with Ursula and Svenja. Is anyone from the Cambridge group in close contact with them and willing to contact them?

All the best,
Heleen

Verstuurd vanaf mijn iPhone

> Op 21 jul. 2016 om 14:20 heeft Ingelore Hafemann <hafemann at bbaw.de> het volgende geschreven:
> 
> Dear Stéphan, dear all, 
> thanks Stéphane for your contribution,  I was just  getting to write a very similar mail at this moment. 
> I would like to confirm to Stéphane in al points - especially about the sign list and even Simon does. In Cambridge I hope to have show in my record how difficult it is to check all signs. We could give toMichel an electronic list of encoded hieroglyphs occured in our TLA , excluded the well referenced Gardiner Codes. So we have the reference of the TLA but an other problem: Students have used variants of  signs in the process of  encoding our texts, - we have to check it. Our aim is to differentiate between       signs and variants as far as it its possible. 
> 1. We can give you a a list of signs missing in Unicode too, with references of our corpus - as Stéphane proposed to do in point 1. below. 
> Adding to point 3. of Stephéne below:  In Berlin we have checked and described nearly 2/3 of the Group A (Man), all of Group G (Birds, 313) all of Group P (Ships, 121)  and all of  Group Z (Strokes, Geometrical F., 39) and a lot signs of the other groups more unsystematical and by-the way. These work we continue in Berlin with one half women power and a re happy that in October one or more scholars will start in Liege. The  Thot-sign list - our common product - will be published step by step. I guess - as Stéphane does - it will takes few years to finish it. We could give part of the allready finished signs to Michel step by step. This should be possible if it seems useful. 
> Concerning point 2.: I would again recommend to contact Ursula Verhoeven and Svenja Gülden in Mainz, who are engaged in creating a new electronic and digitized "Möller"
> 
> Concerning the problems of control characters Simon has discussed the last issues and send some evidences of our texts archive. 
> Many greetings and best wishes 
> Ingelore and Simon   
> 
>   
> 
>> Am 21.07.2016 um 12:41 schrieb Stéphane polis:
>> Hi Heleen,
>> Hi everyone,
>> 
>> Thanks for the summary, it’s a great start for putting things on the table as clearly as possible .
>> 
>>> Repertoire
>>> 
>>> A list will be made with the references to the publication of an original text (photo or facsimile, not a print font like eg IFAO) for each hieroglyph from the proposal of Michel Suignard. Background: The characters in the proposal of Michel do not have sources yet. These sources are needed in order for the proposal to be accepted. 
>>> Michel will do the coordination for this list with input from Stephane/Serge/Simon/Mark-Jan
>>> The hieroglyphs with references can be added in tranches
>>> The first tranche will be the proposal of Michael Everson on hieratic hieroglyphs from Moller to which the hieratic dot will be added
>>> Stephane/Serge/Simon/Mark-Jan will review the proposal of Michael and add any other hieroglyphs that they are missing including the references before mid August
>>> Michael will finish the proposal in the second half of August so that it can be included in the Unicode meeting on the 6th of September
>> I was not there on Tuesday morning, so apologies if you reached an agreement that I am unaware of, but this is not how I see the forthcoming steps in terms of repertoire. 
>> The proposal of Michel for the hieroglyphica represents a significant work, but a work that is impossible to document quickly. And we certainly do not want to introduce signs without knowing what they mean, what they represent and where they are attested (many problematic examples were discussed by Ingelore as well as Serge and myself during the meeting). Sourcing these hieroglyphs is a enormous endeavor, even for professional egyptologists and it will take some years (probably not so many, but we are talking in years before being done) and anyway there is no hurry for anyone to use Unicode for these signs as far as I can tell. What we can do quite quickly, on the other hand, is:
>> 
>> 1. Extracting all the hieroglyphs that we presently use in the TLA and Ramses, looking for the ones missing in Unicode and preparing an addition in Unicode for these signs that we can document precisely.
>> 2. To do the same for the signs identified in Möller by Michael; check the proposal that he prepared (ask our colleague from Mainz) and prepare a document for addition in Unicode.
>> 3. In October, some scholars will begin to work full-time on the sign-list and the joint-work between the TLA and Ramses should become progressively available online (Thot Sign-list), with references to signs, classes and forms, as well as to the scholars responsible for the identification of the values, shapes, etc. This will provide a good basis for integrating the hieroglyphica *step-by-step* in Unicode, when we can actually say what each individual sign is.
>> 
>> In a nutshell, the work done by Michel will be more than useful, but should be integrated step by step in the future (probably a third step). 
>> I think I should get the support of all the egyptologists on this. Correct me guys if I’m wrong.
>> 
>> 
>>> Monograms: 
>>> 
>>> I think the consensus is to make a list of attested combinations and then decide on the approach, either monograms (A) or the use of a control character (B). This list will be used as a proposal for monograms (A) or will be used by developers for their fonts (B). Most Egyptologists were in favor of solution B because of the ease of searching and the ease of implementation (in fonts and not in Unicode proposals). 
>>> Stephane/Serge/Simon/Mark-Jan will make a list and share it with the group. Then a decision is made for A or B
>> Agreed.
>> 
>>> Control characters
>>> 
>>> On the last day of the conference there seemed to be consensus on the control characters, which Michael summed up by mail as: “The proposal is to remove the LIG character from the ballot and to add in 7 more, the two group controls of Bob, and then the four corner and the center controls”
>> Sure. I just sent the data from Ramses that are needed for illustrating and arguing in favour of theses control characters.
>>> It was agreed that this proposal will be finished in August, I thought by Michael, and discussed on the Unicode meeting on the 6th of September. Now it seems over the mail that several people are working on it separately
>>> Suggestion: let Michael, Bob and Mark-Jan do a conference call or so soon to A. make sure there is one proposal that all agree on and can be shared with the group and B. give guidelines to Simon/Serge/Stephane for what examples they should look in their databases 
>> If possible, I think that the best would be to produce a single ‘consensus’ document, which could be signed and approved by all the parties. 
>> I leave it up to you to know who is to produce the first draft. I’m certainly happy to read through it carefully, provide examples, and check everything I can, but I cannot write the first draft, which would be beyond my technical capacities and the time I’ve left during the next weeks.
>> 
>> Best wishes,
>> 
>> Stéphane
>> 
>> 
>>> Input methods and fonts
>>> 
>>> So and Marwan have integrated their input systems and font into SINUHE
>>> So/Marwan could you share with the us the online location so we can start using it?
>>> Bob has made and shared an experimental font for us to use
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>> 
>> 
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> 
> -- 
> Dr. Ingelore Hafemann
> Strukturen und Transformationen des Wortschatzes
> der ägyptischen Sprache
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