From rosmord at iut.univ-paris8.fr Sat Dec 1 08:17:26 2007 From: rosmord at iut.univ-paris8.fr (Serge Rosmorduc) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2007 09:17:26 +0100 Subject: [Egyptian] Unicode 5.1, Egyptian Transliteration, and Fonts In-Reply-To: References: <001e01c8337e$8cd27dc0$0200a8c0@imhotemp> Message-ID: <47511896.7000908@iut.univ-paris8.fr> Michael Everson a ?crit : > 3. Spiritus lenis in Cyrillic is U+0486 COMBINING CYRILLIC PSILI > PNEUMATA. In Cyrillic, this sits atop both uppercase and lowercase > letters. But in Latin, it could sit atop a lowercase letter, and be > preposed before uppercase letters. It could be used with I for > Egyptian and A and U for Ugaritic transcription. > > 4. If the Cyrillic diacritic can't be used, we will need to encode a > Latin Spiritus Lenis. Or explicit LATIN LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL YOD, > LATIN LETTER SEMITIC ALEF, and LATIN LETTER SEMITIC WAW. > > 5. If this is accepted, I would add an annotation to U+0486. > > * used with Latin a, i, u in Semitic studies and Egyptology > > I hope this is acceptable to everyone. > It seems that many in many current fonts, U+0486 has a very different shape than U+0313. Hence, I'd think I'd rather choose your 4th solution, having a specific diacritic (well, my favourite solution, considering the many problems current software has concerning compound signs, would be to have a LATIN LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL YOD, but it seeems unlikely). Best regards, S. Rosmorduc From everson at evertype.com Sun Dec 2 10:45:43 2007 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 10:45:43 +0000 Subject: [Egyptian] Unicode 5.1, Egyptian Transliteration, and Fonts In-Reply-To: <47511896.7000908@iut.univ-paris8.fr> References: <001e01c8337e$8cd27dc0$0200a8c0@imhotemp> <47511896.7000908@iut.univ-paris8.fr> Message-ID: At 09:17 +0100 2007-12-01, Serge Rosmorduc wrote: >It seems that many in many current fonts, U+0486 has a very different >shape than U+0313. Actually there was a glyph corrigendum on that. See http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0400.pdf for the recommended shape in Cyrillic. >Hence, I'd think I'd rather choose your 4th solution, having a >specific diacritic 1. That would have to get approval from the UTC, which will probably dislike "clone" characters being added 2. That would take two years before the character was implemented. U+0486 is there now. >(well, my favourite solution, considering the many problems current software >has concerning compound signs, would be to have a LATIN LETTER >EGYPTOLOGICAL YOD, but it seeems unlikely). Egyptological fonts have to have special characters anyway. And we'd have to add A and U with the same mark for Ugaritic, and who knows how productive it is. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com From saqqara at saqqara.org Sun Dec 2 12:41:37 2007 From: saqqara at saqqara.org (Saqqara) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 12:41:37 -0000 Subject: [Egyptian] Unicode 5.1, Egyptian Transliteration, and Fonts In-Reply-To: References: <001e01c8337e$8cd27dc0$0200a8c0@imhotemp> Message-ID: <000f01c834e0$ae7d8740$0200a8c0@imhotemp> As I understand it, UTC in 2005 rejected the proposal for a separate Egyptological Yod and expressed a preference to use an existing combining mark. Apparently U+0486 COMBINING CYRILLIC PSILI PNEUMATA is the only such mark already defined and open to suitable positioning in Latin. So unless there are any compelling reasons to do otherwise, I agree that we should proceed with this convention and Unicode data files and documentation should be adjusted accordingly. Ideally this would be incorporated in the Unicode 5.1 release, thereby completing the traditional 'Egyptian transliteration' set. Bob Richmond www.saqqara.org -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Michael Everson Sent: 30 November 2007 21:49 To: unicode at unicode.org; UnicoRe Discussion Cc: Egyptian Discussion Subject: Re: [Egyptian] Unicode 5.1, Egyptian Transliteration, and Fonts At 18:26 +0000 2007-11-30, Saqqara wrote: >A reminder. Unicode 5.1 is bringing Egyptian Transliteration >characters LATIN CAPITAL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL ALEF, LATIN SMALL >LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL ALEF, LATIN CAPITAL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL AIN >and LATIN SMALL LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL AIN. The EGYPTOLOGICAL YOD is >still an unresolved point but nevertheless the new characters allow >for a useable system. The mark on the Egyptological Yod is ultimately a Greek spiritus lenis. Here is my recommendation: 1. Spiritus lenis in Greek is U+0313 COMBINING COMMA ABOVE. In Greek, what this character does is sit atop a lowercase letter, and is preposed before uppercase letters. See U+1F00 and U+1F08. 2. U+0313 cannot be used for the Egyptological Yod because its case behaviour in Greek does not apply to Latin or Cyrillic. In Latin and Cyrillic, U+0313 sits atop both uppercase and lowercase letters. This happens in natural orthographies for minority languages. 3. Spiritus lenis in Cyrillic is U+0486 COMBINING CYRILLIC PSILI PNEUMATA. In Cyrillic, this sits atop both uppercase and lowercase letters. But in Latin, it could sit atop a lowercase letter, and be preposed before uppercase letters. It could be used with I for Egyptian and A and U for Ugaritic transcription. 4. If the Cyrillic diacritic can't be used, we will need to encode a Latin Spiritus Lenis. Or explicit LATIN LETTER EGYPTOLOGICAL YOD, LATIN LETTER SEMITIC ALEF, and LATIN LETTER SEMITIC WAW. 5. If this is accepted, I would add an annotation to U+0486. * used with Latin a, i, u in Semitic studies and Egyptology I hope this is acceptable to everyone. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com _______________________________________________ Egyptian mailing list Egyptian at evertype.com http://evertype.com/mailman/listinfo/egyptian_evertype.com From schenkel at uni-tuebingen.de Thu Dec 20 12:04:14 2007 From: schenkel at uni-tuebingen.de (Wolfgang Schenkel) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:04:14 +0100 Subject: [Egyptian] Unicode 5.1, Egyptian Transliteration, and Fonts References: <001e01c8337e$8cd27dc0$0200a8c0@imhotemp> Message-ID: <6E07BCACE52440A09F71F3CBD675A527@W2> Dear Michael, I don't remember whether there was a discussion about capital letters Aleph and Ayin or not. Gardiner, in his Egyptian Grammar, has special forms (cf. for example p. 550 Aker and atef-crown; p. 558 Anukis and myrrh). Unfortunately the forms he proposes are not very practical. A different solution is given in my Aus der Arbeit an einer Konkordanz zu den alt?gyptischen Sargtexten, Wiesbaden 1983, p. 15: upper case Aleph and upper case Ayin = lower case Aleph and lower case Ayin with a vertical stroke attached (for example: my upper case Ayin looks like IPA Ayin). I don't insist on my solution. A different question is capital "yod" (M 17, reed). The standard solution is "hook" *followed by* (capital) "I". In my Konkordanz zu den alt?gyptisches Sargtexten" I will use a combination "hook" *above* (capital) "I". The standard solution ist ok, if you don't use the "hook" to transcribe (unfortunate English tradition: transliterate) an "unclear consonant" and if you don't need (as I do) small caps. In the latter case "hook" followed by "I" may represent two consonants. I don't insist on my solution. Best wishes, Wolfgang From mjn at cs.st-andrews.ac.uk Thu Dec 20 19:39:28 2007 From: mjn at cs.st-andrews.ac.uk (M.J. Nederhof) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:39:28 +0000 Subject: [Egyptian] mention of email address Message-ID: <200712201939.29130.mjn@cs.st-andrews.ac.uk> Michael, After having received 0 spam messages for the last 14 months, today the first has arrived. Perhaps email harvesters have done OCR of the image on my home page, but it seems far more likely they have done simple pattern matching and replaced " at " by "@" for some occurrence of my email address that someone put on the web without my explicit consent. I have found only two sites with such occurrences of "mjn at ..." and one is yours, e.g.: http://evertype.com/pipermail/egyptian_evertype.com/2007-April/000004.html Could you please edit out any occurrences in any form of my email address on your web pages? Cheers, Mark-Jan From everson at evertype.com Thu Dec 20 22:22:07 2007 From: everson at evertype.com (Michael Everson) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 22:22:07 +0000 Subject: [Egyptian] mention of email address In-Reply-To: <200712201939.29130.mjn@cs.st-andrews.ac.uk> References: <200712201939.29130.mjn@cs.st-andrews.ac.uk> Message-ID: At 19:39 +0000 2007-12-20, M.J. Nederhof wrote: >http://evertype.com/pipermail/egyptian_evertype.com/2007-April/000004.html > >Could you please edit out any occurrences in any form of my email address >on your web pages? No, I cannot. it is not my job to prevent spam harvesters from finding you and I am not responsible for the way that Gnu Pipermail archives messages. I have no idea how to edit the archives, and I certainly don't have time to start that kind of activity. In fairness. -- Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com