<div dir="ltr">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Hello Everyone</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">First of all: I am attaching a pdf
version of this email because I am using a few images, and I am not sure they
will displayed in the right places in the email. If you don’t
see any image in the text below or something does not make sense, please refer
to the pdf.<br>
<br>
-------<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">I dare to write here an email
pointing out a few general and specific observations on both what has been said
in Cambridge, and what has been discussed in these emails in the past few days.<br>
<br>
I have the feeling that many of you will not like what I am going to write, but
well..</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">First of all, as you know I didn’t
know any of you before Cambridge, so I had the feeling to be a bit an “external
observer”. Which, in turn, led me to a few observations.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"><br>
<b>First:</b><br>
<br>
Do you know the Indian story of the three (or more) blind men who are put in
front of an elephant and are asked to find out what hey have in front of them ( <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant</a>
)? One in front of the trump, one next to the ear and one near the tail. The
three blind men start touching the elephant and start to try to describe it and
to try to figure out what kind of animal is, but they end up fighting because
they can only touch a small part of the animal but missed the general picture.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Besides the “entrenched positions”
mentioned by Nigel, I had the feeling that some of the participants in
Cambridge were a bit like the blind men, knowing very well their specific
fields, but missing a bit the general picture, thus ending up misunderstanding
the others.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Now, I don’t want to sound arrogant.
I don’t think I have a vision of the whole picture and I don’t think to be more
knowledgeable than any of you. I put myself as well among those blind men.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">But considering that, correct me if
I am wrong, So and I (note that I am talking only in my name, not in So's name)
are the only person at that workshop who:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"><br>
a) are Egyptologists and therefore know both how Egyptian hieroglyphs works and
what Egyptologists need (or at least what we need as egyptlogists)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">b) have been playing since a while
with Unicode characters, fonts, input methods etc and therefore have a certain
understanding of how these technical tools work</span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"><br></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">c) have a good practical understanding of how
non-Latin complex </span>horizontal/vertical scripts work. In particular So is
familiar with Japanese, Chinese and Korean, I think? While I know pretty well
Arabic-based scripts, Indian ones (I lived in Nepal and when I was there I
ended up teaching Nepali to Nepali children in a Nepali school) and I have
played a lot with Chinese and Japanese scripts.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Then, perhaps, our small little
contribution should also be considered to make sense of the whole big elephant.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">This even more considering that in
spite of having never met before, both So and I ended up developing very
similar solutions to some of the problems you are discussing, solutions that, by
the way, seem to me very similar to what Ishida was suggesting in some of his
emails.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Solutions that, in fact, are already
implemented by various scripts around the world.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"><br>
<b>Second:</b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Many of the problems you are
discussing don’t have a single “right” solution, because in fact many of those
problems depends on how you interpret the data (i.e. the ancient hieroglyphs).
Therefore, the aim should not be to find the “right” solution, but rather to
find the easiest *interpretation* that could led to the easiest implementation
in Unicode. <br>
We are not ancient Egyptians, we don’t know how ancient Egyptian scribes
perceived their writing system. We can just observe it from the outside and
suggest interpretations. Which are not “right” or “wrong”, but rather “more
efficient” or “less efficient” in respect to the problems we want to solve
through these interpretations. This is something that, I think, should be kept
in mind.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><b><span lang="EN-GB">Third</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">As said during the meeting in
Cambridge, I am not against the introduction and use of some control characters
per se.<br>
Still, honestly, more I read about your proposals and about your control
characters, and more I am convinced that using rendering algorithms at the font
level and general or contextual ligatures embedded within the fonts as a main
way to combine and display groups would be much easier and much more efficient than
using control characters.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">This said, allow me to call your
attention to a few more specific points.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><b><span lang="EN-GB">1) JSesh approach</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">I had the feeling during the meeting
and reading your emails that many of you think in a very JSesh-based mentality.
Like I had the feeling that at least some of the participants’ goal is to
imitate JSesh in Unicode.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">But Unicode *is* *not* JSesh, or at
least should not be JSesh.<br>
Using control functions, parentheses etc can be an efficient way in JSesh, but
I doubt that a system requiring to input 10 (sic!) control characters to
display 3 (sic!) hieroglyphs in a pretty common group (the Htp example in
Mark-Jan’s last proposal) makes much sense in a unicode perspective. Especially
considering that you can obtain exactly the same result without control
character and just with 1 (sic!) general ligature within the font that will be
automatically rendered by usual standard already available rendering
algorithms.<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">In other words, what can be an
efficient solution to a problem in JSesh, is not necessarily a good solution in
Unicode. And Unicode is not even a stand-alone thing: Unicode can work in
combination with rendering algorithm (i.e. ligatures embedded in fonts), with
layouts at the editor level etc. that can help solving the problems on
different level than just on the Unicode encoding level.<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><b><span lang="EN-GB">2) Groups in fonts</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Someone in the list was saying that
the groups need to be listed, but that not all of them necessarily need to be
built in the font (or something like that).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">This is not true: compound
characters and groups will not automatically build on their own, and if you
envisaged the possibility to build a group that you *do* need to have in the
font, otherwise it wont display correctly and you will have random broken control-characters
popping out here and there in your hieroglyph text. This perhaps will not
bother you in your database etc, but it will be just unacceptable for common
users (and, for instance, for editors).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">If you are accepting that a group
can be built, then you need a way to display that group, i.e. you must have
that group saved somewhere in your font.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Whether you will build those
characters through control characters or with rendering and ligature algorithms
embedded in the fonts.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><b><span lang="EN-GB">3) the 4 “small sign in the corner of big sign” control characters.</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">If you really want to have control characters
to combine small signs in the corner of bigger signs, you can do that with just
2 control characters, you don’t need 4 of them. These because the distinction
you are making between “big” and “small” signs is superfluous.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">It is enough to have 2 transversal
control characters, that we can represent as “A\B” and “A/B”. They will join
the main signs by virtually/ideally putting them at two opposite corners of the
square, on the base of their relative order.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">So for instance, if you want to
render the group <img src="cid:ii_156170f93cbaf39c" alt="Inline image 2" width="22" height="22" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"> tw, you will just type in <img src="cid:ii_156170fcaae70f64" alt="Inline image 3" width="12" height="18" style="margin-right: 0px;"> </span><span lang="EN-GB">t + “A\B-control-character” + <img src="cid:ii_156171000803ee16" alt="Inline image 4" width="17" height="20" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"> w.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">If instead you want to code for <img src="cid:ii_15617106df046049" alt="Inline image 6" width="21" height="24" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span> <span lang="EN-GB">wt, then you will just need to type in </span><span lang="EN-GB"><img src="cid:ii_156171022c2fa36c" alt="Inline image 5" width="17" height="20" style="margin-right: 0px;"> w + “A\B-control-character” + <img src="cid:ii_15617108c6d68406" alt="Inline image 7" width="12" height="18" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"> t.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">If you want to render <img src="cid:ii_156171310bdf5d50" alt="Inline image 10" width="22" height="19" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"> twt, then you just type in <img src="cid:ii_15617132d0288dbe" alt="Inline image 11" width="12" height="18" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"> t + “A\B-control-character” + </span><span lang="EN-GB"> <img src="cid:ii_15617135bb6d77a0" alt="Inline image 12" width="17" height="20" style="margin-right: 0px;"> w + “A\B-control-character” + <img src="cid:ii_15617137b5b357be" alt="Inline image 13" width="12" height="18" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"> t</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">In all these cases, you can simply
use the same control character.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">You don’t need two distinct control
characters for that, because there is no need to specify which one is the “big”
sign, and which one is the “small” one, because what really matters is not
their size, but their relative position.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">NOTE: if by any chance you are going
to adopt this system of 2 control characters, then I’d like to be mentioned in
the proposal. You know, it could be useful on the CV.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><b><span lang="EN-GB">4) Vertical and horizontal script and control characters</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">You are talking about using control
characters to render texts in horizontal and vertical texts. This, however, can
generate some quite relevant problems.<br>
In particular, you have to consider that it will be hardly possible to
automatically convert a vertical text encoded with control characters into
horizontal text. In other words, if you have a text written in vertical columns
that used control characters, and for whatever reason (for instance for
editorial reasons, you editor wants your text in horizontal lines and not in
vertical lines, for instance if you are quoting a hieroglyphic passage within a
English paragraph) you will need to turn it into horizontal text, you will
hardly be able to do it automatically, and you will likely have to retype it
entirely.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">The problem is that the control
characters that you will need and use in your vertical text will not be the
same and will not be inputted in the same places as those that you will need in
your horizontal rendition of the same text.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Let’s take, for instance, the
following example.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><img src="cid:ii_1561714c892debeb" alt="Inline image 14" width="32" height="96" style="margin-right: 0px;"> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"><br></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">If this text will be typed with a
vertical font (as I would expect it to be), then to display it correctly you
will have to type the following sequence of Unicode characters:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"><img src="cid:ii_1561714ff2ca0ca7" alt="Inline image 15" width="30" height="32" style="margin-right: 0px;"> + <img src="cid:ii_1561715256f6d0a4" alt="Inline image 16" width="18" height="27" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB">+ “left/right-ctrl-character” (sic!)
+ <img src="cid:ii_15617153fa568645" alt="Inline image 17" width="12" height="18" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span> <span lang="EN-GB">+ “up/down-control-character” (sic!) + <img src="cid:ii_156171569831ae89" alt="Inline image 18" width="14" height="30" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"> + <img src="cid:ii_15617158268f145c" alt="Inline image 19" width="32" height="21" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"> + <img src="cid:ii_1561715a3a41fe0e" alt="Inline image 20" width="32" height="21" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">NOTE that you will probably (as far
as I know, correct me if I am wrong) have to use the “left/right-ctrl-character”
(not a up/down crtl-character) to combine the <img src="cid:ii_156171614be2d29b" alt="Inline image 21" width="18" height="27" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"> and <img src="cid:ii_15617164803b5742" alt="Inline image 22" width="12" height="18" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"> and then the “up/down ctrl character (not a
“left/right ctrl character) to combine them with the <img src="cid:ii_1561716835c71370" alt="Inline image 23" width="14" height="30" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB">, because in vertical texts the baseline
of reference is the left line of the column. Note that this will change the
order the signs have to be inputted, which means it will interfere with the
searchability of the text.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">This however is a problem that should
be possible to solved somehow. Perhaps, I am not sure. I am not expert of these
details.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">If however you will try to display
this same text (i.e. this same sequence of Unicode characters) horizontally, it
wont be enough to chance the direction of the text and to use a horizontal
font, because what you would obtain would be something wrong like this:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"><img src="cid:ii_1561716d5be6241d" alt="Inline image 24" width="30" height="32" style="margin-right: 0px;"><img src="cid:ii_1561716f30cfd774" alt="Inline image 25" width="18" height="27" style="margin-right: 0px;"> "broken-control-character” <img src="cid:ii_15617175cd6672c2" alt="Inline image 26" width="12" height="18" style="margin-right: 0px;"> "</span><span lang="EN-GB">broken-control-character” <img src="cid:ii_1561717857d1a5a0" alt="Inline image 27" width="14" height="30" style="margin-right: 0px;"><img src="cid:ii_1561717f15e5a9c3" alt="Inline image 29" width="32" height="21" style="margin-right: 0px;"><img src="cid:ii_156171806c96fffc" alt="Inline image 30" width="32" height="21" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">In order to display horizontally the
same text in a graphically acceptable way, in fact, you will have to type the
following sequence of Unicode characters:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"><img src="cid:ii_15617184ca309e71" alt="Inline image 31" width="30" height="32" style="margin-right: 0px;"> + <img src="cid:ii_15617188918fcfa2" alt="Inline image 32" width="14" height="30" style="margin-right: 0px;"> </span><span lang="EN-GB">+ <img src="cid:ii_1561718b94bcbf71" alt="Inline image 33" width="18" height="27" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"> + “up-down-control-character” +</span><span lang="EN-GB"> <img src="cid:ii_156171900720b2e8" alt="Inline image 34" width="12" height="18" style="margin-right: 0px;">
+ <img src="cid:ii_15617191df1f8d5e" alt="Inline image 35" width="32" height="21" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"> + “up-down-control-character” + <img src="cid:ii_156171968a6eb75c" alt="Inline image 36" width="32" height="21" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"><br>
Which would be displayed as:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"><br>
</span><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><img src="cid:ii_1561719a8f9fd4d2" alt="Inline image 37" width="93" height="32" style="margin-right: 0px;"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Essentially, you will have to type
the text anew. Not very practical, in my opinion.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Using rendering algorithms, i.e.
general or contextual ligatures embedded within the *font* at the font level
(instead of control characters), would be a very easy way to solve the problem.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">In fact it would be enough to have
two fonts, one for vertical texts and one for horizontal texts (or one single
font with the possibility to switch between the two layouts) with different
sets of ligatures embedded in them.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">In that way, you will just have to
type the following plain sequence of Unicode characters (without any control character):</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"><br>
</span><span lang="EN-GB"><img src="cid:ii_1561719e57b349e9" alt="Inline image 38" width="30" height="32" style="margin-right: 0px;"> + <img src="cid:ii_156171a12eb9eb7b" alt="Inline image 39" width="18" height="27" style="margin-right: 0px;"> </span><span lang="EN-GB">+ <img src="cid:ii_156171a7e83a678d" alt="Inline image 41" width="12" height="18" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"> + <img src="cid:ii_156171a9651cdc1d" alt="Inline image 42" width="14" height="30" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"> + <img src="cid:ii_156171aaf8c4b750" alt="Inline image 43" width="32" height="21" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"> + <img src="cid:ii_156171ae364425da" alt="Inline image 45" width="32" height="21" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">And the ligature algorithm in the
vertical font will render the ligature <img src="cid:ii_156171c43b58dfed" alt="Inline image 46" width="31" height="28" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB">.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Then, to turn this same vertical
string of text into horizontal text you will just have to change the font, and
the algorithm in the horizontal font will automatically display the correct <img src="cid:ii_156171c85a021ea2" alt="Inline image 47" width="31" height="28" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"> and <img src="cid:ii_156171caf8eee018" alt="Inline image 48" width="28" height="26" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span> <span lang="EN-GB">ligatures.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Without need to retype anything.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"><br>
NOTE that the hieroglyphic text you see the examples here above have all been
obtained in this way, namely without control characters and just with my font
with embedded ligatures.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">As Ishida suggested in one of his
emails, this is essentially how Asian languages deal with this problems. It is
very efficient, it works, it does not require any new special character and
frankly I still don’t understand why Egyptian should be different.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><b><span lang="EN-GB">5) special characters, vertical/horizontal texts and input methods</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Note that because of the problem
with control characters and horizontal/vertical texts highlighted above, you
*wont be able* to use a same simple predictive input method to type vertical
and horizontal texts, because the sequences of signs and control characters
needed will be *totally* different, and will both need to be encoded
independently within the input method itself.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">In fact, you will probably have to
explicitly list in advance within the input method every single possible
combination of hieroglyphic signs + control characters, or you will have to
just type you text sign by sign, control character by control character (even
if you adopt shortcuts to input the control characters and the most common
groups, the problem will still be there).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Again, with general or contextual
ligatures embedded at the font level this problem would not exist, because the
input method would just have to input the plain sequence of signs, and it will
be the rendering algorithm within the fonts that will take care of displaying
the signs in the correct spatial order.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><b><span lang="EN-GB">6) Ramesside “groups” (or “tall groups”).</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><b><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">You all seem to assume that the
clusters of signs we see in Ramesside texts are “groups” (or ligatures)
analogous to the middle Egyptian square groups, and therefore have to be
created, manipulated and displayed as graphical units.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">For the non-Egyptologists among us,
this is a Ramesside text</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><img src="cid:ii_156171d1759fdc1c" alt="Inline image 49" width="132" height="134" style="margin-right: 0px;"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">in red you have what is generally referred to
as a “Ramesside group” (or “tall groups”).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><img src="cid:ii_156171d6744e7951" alt="Inline image 50" width="132" height="134" style="margin-right: 0px;"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">
<br>
Here, instead, you have an ordinary Egyptian text, </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><img src="cid:ii_156171dab7c53318" alt="Inline image 51" width="240" height="138" style="margin-right: 0px;"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">and in red you have what are
generally considered as ordinary “square groups”.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><img src="cid:ii_156171e0e77c7897" alt="Inline image 52" width="240" height="138"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">As you can see, the difference is
that in ordinary Egyptian writing, sings are grouped into regular square spaces
(or half-squares). In Ramesside writing, instead, signs tend to be combined
into vertically elongated rectangles. These rectangles can contain multiple
ordinary square groups.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">For instance, the following
Ramesside group from the text above:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><img src="cid:ii_156171f1d89ecf95" alt="Inline image 53" width="23" height="37" style="margin-right: 0px;"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">could be split into two ordinary square
groups, <img src="cid:ii_1561720b7beb15b9" alt="Inline image 54" width="22" height="22" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"> and <img src="cid:ii_1561720d81f30129" alt="Inline image 55" width="20" height="14" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB">, in the ordinary square groups writing.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> <br>
As said, people often assume that these clusters of signs in Ramesside texts
have to be understood as “groups” analogous to the “square groups” of the
ordinary writing.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"><br>
<br>
But, what if the Ramesside “groups” were actually not really “groups”?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Or better, what if there were an
easier and most efficient way to analyses, interpret, describe, and therefore
display them?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"><br>
People seem to often assume that there are only two main ways to write a string
of text, namely vertically or horizontally. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">This however is in not true.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">It is also possible to write short
horizontal strings of text within a larger main vertical frame, and similarly
it is possible to write short vertical strings of text within a larger main
horizontal frame.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">The second case, in particular, is attested
in Asian scripts.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Have a look at the following image:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"><br>
<img src="cid:ii_15617212b98f95ee" alt="Inline image 57" width="91" height="54" style="margin-right: 0px;"><br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"><br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">This is a Japanese text, as you can
see from the next image, it is written in short vertical “columns” (red), organized
into one general horizontal “line” (green).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><img src="cid:ii_15617214700a1ea8" alt="Inline image 56" width="91" height="54"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Namely, the text is written (the
text in the pic is right to left, I am transcribing it left to right because it
is easier to explain the concept)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">---------------</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:'\00ff2d\00ff33 \00660e\00671d'">大馬大呉店</span><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:'\00ff2d\00ff33 \00660e\00671d'">博町光服の</span><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">---------------</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">But it has to be read:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:'\00ff2d\00ff33 \00660e\00671d'">大博</span> <span lang="EN-GB">| </span><span style="font-family:'\00ff2d\00ff33 \00660e\00671d'">馬町</span> <span lang="EN-GB">| </span><span style="font-family:'\00ff2d\00ff33 \00660e\00671d'">大光</span> <span lang="EN-GB">| </span><span style="font-family:'\00ff2d\00ff33 \00660e\00671d'">呉服</span> <span lang="EN-GB">| </span><span style="font-family:'\00ff2d\00ff33 \00660e\00671d'">店の</span><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">namely:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span style="font-family:'\00ff2d\00ff33 \00660e\00671d'">大博馬町大光呉服店の</span><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Japanese writing has “groups” (i.e.
characters, marked in white in the following picture) that in some general
respect could be compared to Egyptian groups (they are not identical, I know,
but *in some respects* they are conceptually comparable).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"><img src="cid:ii_1561721967b4354e" alt="Inline image 58" width="91" height="54"><br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Now, *no one* dealing with Japanese
writing would consider the short vertical strings of text (the red bits above)
as some sort “non-ordinary elongated groups(characters)”. And *no one* would
ever consider to code such hypothetical elongated vertical groups into Unicode,
or to devise control characters or anything to pre-compose them. They are just
sequences of *regular* groups(characters) written vertically within a main horizontal
layout.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">And in order to represent such a
text in Unicode, you just have to play with the layout of your text in your
text editor. You don’t need special control characters or anything else, it is
*just* a question of *layout*.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Now, Ramesside inscriptions can be
analysed exactly in the same way.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><img src="cid:ii_1561721d4b64ce07" alt="Inline image 59" width="132" height="134" style="margin-right: 0px;"><br></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">In other words, what you are
interpreting as the Ramesside “abnormal elongated/tall groups” (red in the pic
above) could actually be interpreted just as short strings of texts written
vertically (i.e short *columns*) within a bigger main horizontal layout (i.e. in
lines, in green).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Such an interpretation has a few
advantages both in respect to the actual data from the ancient texts and for
what concern Unicode etc.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">First, someone was pointing out that
there are thousands of such “Ramesside groups” and a large part of them is
attested only once. Well, if you interpreted them as short columns of texts,
rather than as groups, you understand why: those are short strings of texts,
they are not isolated independent graphic and orthographic units. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">This also helps to answer the
question: “how many groups are you expecting to find in the future?”<br>
Virtually, potentially, infinite.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">If tomorrow we should find a new
Ramesside temple with a new long text inscribed in “Ramesside groups”, there
could be hundreds, even thousands of these new short vertical strings of texts.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Trying to describe (and encode) them
as independent units (or devising control characters to build them) is more or
less like trying to encode every singly column of hieroglyphic text as single
independent “groups”. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">It does not make much sense, as it
would not make sense to try to describe and code every single horizontal
sequence of groups(characters) in the Japanese texts above.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Rather, it would make much more
sense to deal with these “Ramesside short vertical strings of text disposed in
horizontal lines” as if they were.. well, short vertical strings of text
disposed in horizontal lines.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">This can be *easily* done at the
layout level, either with xml/CSS style sheets, or with any other layout
algorithm of any text editor. Word can do that, already. It is enough to use a
vertical font, and create a page layout with horizontal sequences (= the lines)
of very short vertical columns.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">That is all what you need.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">The Ramesside “group” (or “tall
group”) <img src="cid:ii_156172221834c22c" alt="Inline image 60" width="30" height="49" style="margin-right: 0px;"></span><span lang="EN-GB"> used by
Bob as example in his last proposal, for instance, would not need to be built
and displayed as “group” (i.e. with control characters etc) at all, but it
could just be inputted as a plain sequence of independent signs displayed with
a vertical font within a vertical column, in a general layout that present
series of horizontal sequences (i.e. a “lines”) of such short columnts. No need
for ligatures, no need for control characters, nothing. Just vertical fonts and
properly set up layouts for the page where the signs will be displayed.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Obviously, there will still be signs
that will need to be combined in “groups”, i.e. in “real” square groups. As you
can see from the pic above, however, if you interpret the Ramesside texts as
composed of short vertical columns, the number of groups needed decrease
significantly. And in general, those groups are often the same basic groups
that you find in good old ordinary Egyptian square groups orthography.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">So no need to list and encode (as
Unicode or at the font level, doesn’t matter) thousands of unique groups, we
would just need to encode the basic square groups and then playing a bit with
the layout of the text.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">And this brings me to the next
point:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><b><span lang="EN-GB">7) What are the “square groups”?</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">I have never specifically worked on
square groups from a linguistic point of view, and I do not know if there is
any specific study about square groups and their graphic behaviour within a
larger linguistic frame (i.e. for instance comparing them with the behaviour of
similar “groups” in other writing systems). This is one of those points where
the experience of some of you could be extremely useful.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Such a study could be used, for instance,
to define some contextual rules to allow the font to automatically manage the
combination of at least some of these groups, or at least to define some rules
to automatically prioritize one ligature over the other (if we are working with
ligatures at the font level).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">If such a study exists, then it
would be useful to take it into consideration in the discussion.<br>
If such a study does not exist, then perhaps it could be worth considering
doing it *before* submitting any new proposal involving control characters to
the Unicode consortium, because I think it would be better to be sure we really
understand how those groups work, before suggesting a method to encode them.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">I am obviously talking about control
characters etc, I am not talking about expanding the basic set of glyphs. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Otherwise, we would be encoding
something whose actual functioning has never been studied, and therefore we
would risk to be encoding features and elements that are actually superfluous,
or that could have been managed in a more efficient way at other levels
(ligatures within the fonts, layout table at the texteditor level etc).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Ok, I guess this is more or less all
what I wanted to say.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Now feel free to ignore me :-)</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Best</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB">Marwan</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><span lang="EN-GB"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:justify"><br></p>
</div>